[00:00:00] Most people entering the program are very apprehensive and should be apprehensive.
[00:00:05] And in fact I had asked the Marshal Service and others who deal with the witnesses early on
[00:00:11] to tell them this is going to be an extremely difficult process,
[00:00:15] just transferring from one city to another,
[00:00:18] just moving your children from one high school or junior high school to another.
[00:00:22] Those are difficult processes for people to go through,
[00:00:26] not being able to see grandma anymore,
[00:00:29] not being able to attend a funeral back home of a relative or visit someone in the hospital.
[00:00:35] I mean those are extremely stressful situations that the families find themselves in
[00:00:40] and we lay that out ahead of time so they know that's what it's going to be like.
[00:00:45] Music
[00:00:55] That was Gerald Schur, the man who created the Witness Protection Program.
[00:01:00] It has been so successful they have never lost a protactee,
[00:01:05] but that doesn't mean people haven't walked away
[00:01:08] because abandoning your current life is so difficult.
[00:01:12] Music
[00:01:15] I'm Jim Grinstead and today we'll talk about the elephant left in the room,
[00:01:20] Witness Protection Programs.
[00:01:24] Unlike our previous episodes on this topic,
[00:01:27] we'll talk about criminals and those running from the law
[00:01:31] and how the power of federal and state governments can give them a head start on creating a new life.
[00:01:36] This change is voluntary, but only if they want to stay alive.
[00:01:41] Music
[00:01:49] Is going into the Witness Protection Program like what we see on TV or in the movies?
[00:01:54] It's not like, oh yeah, Witness, we're going to put you in this nice little house
[00:01:58] and you know, you get this new ID and your credit cards and no, it's not like that at all.
[00:02:04] We got stuck in a little hotel that was about the size of a studio for a family of what?
[00:02:08] You need three kids and a boyfriend.
[00:02:10] It's not just the federal government that has Witness Protection Programs.
[00:02:15] Some states have them too and the woman you just heard from was in Massachusetts.
[00:02:20] Music
[00:02:28] Regardless of who's footing the bill,
[00:02:31] Witness Protection Programs do what they must to keep their protectees in the program.
[00:02:36] Music
[00:02:40] As the publication Mental Floss said, to entice a mobster to testify in the 1970s,
[00:02:46] the program paid for his wife's surgery, including breast implants and a facelift.
[00:02:51] One unnamed participant was given penis surgery, not to disguise his identity,
[00:02:58] but because psychologists said he was depressed and needed a self-esteem boost in order to testify.
[00:03:05] In the late 1990s, it became the policy to not provide plastic surgery for Witnesses.
[00:03:11] They would help Witnesses get it, but government money would not be used.
[00:03:16] Music
[00:03:19] The program is run by the U.S. Marshall Service and the cost of the program comes out of its budget.
[00:03:26] Around 19,000 people have gone through the program.
[00:03:30] Music
[00:03:34] Whom you heard from at the beginning of this program has said about 95% of the Witnesses in WITSEC are criminals themselves.
[00:03:42] On the plus side, trials with Witnesses in the WITSEC program have an 89% conviction rate.
[00:03:49] Music
[00:03:57] Adjusted department studies said the Marshalls asked Congress for $270 million in 2019 to fund the program,
[00:04:05] because WITSEC is a mandatory program. It gets the funding at once.
[00:04:10] The report says typical expenses include but aren't limited to subsistence, housing, medical and dental care,
[00:04:19] travel, documentation, identity changes, one-time relocation and costs associated with obtaining employment.
[00:04:28] The funding also provides for the construction and maintenance of safe site facilities to house protected Witnesses before and during the trial,
[00:04:37] the purchase and maintenance of armored vehicles and the maintenance of a secured network.
[00:04:42] It ain't cheap, but with an 89% conviction rate it might be worth it, especially when you consider the cost of bringing the criminal to trial.
[00:04:51] I'm a summer guy. I'll be on the porch enjoying a cool drink and reading. Doesn't get any better unless someone else does the cooking.
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[00:06:34] It's easy to overlook that when witnesses are relocated, so is their family. Spouses, partners, children, sometimes parents and grandparents can have their lives disrupted.
[00:06:46] It started off as just a rape case. Then in New Year my flat got broken into and trashed.
[00:06:53] Then I got put into a different property and some of these people turned up at the flat.
[00:06:59] And I got moved again and again and again.
[00:07:04] Because of the situation I was in, it wasn't safe for me to see my kids.
[00:07:09] I begged and pleaded, please don't make me go to court. Don't make me go to court. I did not want to go to court.
[00:07:17] Because I'd been warned when they got into the house if I went to court they wouldn't stop until they found me.
[00:07:24] Literally it all started here. It's quite weird being back here.
[00:07:29] I had a phone call the night before and said we're picking you up and we're taking you to a hotel and you've got to meet these people is what the CID told me.
[00:07:38] I was sat in this room and I was told this is what's going to happen.
[00:07:43] If you want to see your kids, if you want to like stay safe you've got to come with us.
[00:07:48] That is from a BBC programme about the witness protection programme in Britain.
[00:07:53] You heard from someone who was a witness in a case.
[00:07:57] I couldn't give anyone my phone number, I had to be careful.
[00:08:01] I couldn't phone my mum and say oh mum they've moved me. I wasn't allowed to do that.
[00:08:07] From being around the corner from your kids to being hundreds of miles away from them.
[00:08:12] It's not nice. How to explain that to your kids? All I did was cry for years.
[00:08:20] One of them could phone me up and say mum I really need you right now
[00:08:26] and that's heart wrenching because I can't go to them ever. That's just the way life is now.
[00:08:33] Here's AI voice Tamika. Reading from an article in the Billings Gazette
[00:08:38] discussing what it's like to grow up in such a household.
[00:08:41] They spoke with Jackie Taylor who was age seven when she was uprooted.
[00:08:47] I want people to know exactly what the witness protection programme is all about.
[00:08:52] Taylor, a 36 year old waitress at a local bar and casino.
[00:08:56] It's not like the movies they do not give you money.
[00:09:00] They do not set you up and help you out. I see us more as being dumped.
[00:09:07] Taylor's biggest frustration is that she was never given a new birth certificate.
[00:09:12] Without it, she has had a lifetime of frustrations.
[00:09:17] When I was a kid I couldn't play softball for a while.
[00:09:21] My mum begged and pleaded but I didn't have a birth certificate.
[00:09:26] Joining the Girl Scouts and later enrolling in college
[00:09:30] were made more difficult because she did not have a birth certificate.
[00:09:35] I had to sit down with the whole college admissions board
[00:09:39] and I had to have people write letters saying they knew my family.
[00:09:43] Not having the document became a hurdle when Taylor wanted to get married.
[00:09:48] A clerk in Yellowstone County refused to issue her a marriage certificate
[00:09:52] because Taylor didn't have a birth certificate.
[00:09:55] She instead went to Carbon County where a clerk accepted her passport
[00:10:00] in lieu of a birth certificate.
[00:10:03] Taylor and her two siblings were issued passports about 20 years ago
[00:10:08] but Taylor has since lost hers and has been unable to get a replacement.
[00:10:15] A passport is nearly as good as a birth certificate
[00:10:18] for establishing identity and citizenship
[00:10:21] but Taylor said she has been unable to replace the lost document
[00:10:25] because she needs the help of the federal agency.
[00:10:30] Nobody seems to be on our case anymore.
[00:10:33] It seems like we've fallen through the cracks.
[00:10:35] I want a passport, I want a birth certificate,
[00:10:38] I want to be able to go to Mexico on vacation.
[00:10:42] I want to be able to get my marriage license in Yellowstone County.
[00:10:47] It's just been nothing but problems.
[00:11:21] The only thing bigger than Bigfoot's feet are our egos.
[00:11:23] If you like simulation theory, ancient history,
[00:11:26] egghead science and Mandela effect, that kind of stuff,
[00:11:29] so check it out!
[00:11:30] New episodes every Wednesday.
[00:11:32] All the links you need on mrbunkersconspiracitime.com
[00:11:35] and we'll see you in the bunker.
[00:11:42] Now it's time to hear from the person who created the Witness Protection Program.
[00:11:47] Gerald Scher began the program in 1971.
[00:11:50] He died in 2020 at the age of 86.
[00:11:54] Anyone who got into the program had to have Scher's approval
[00:11:58] and they had to sign a contract.
[00:12:01] Here's Scher, his friends call him Jerry, talking on the podcast Criminal.
[00:12:06] And they have a sheet with the rules.
[00:12:09] She did 8 by 10 piece of paper
[00:12:12] and they sign that piece of paper that they will abide by the rules
[00:12:16] and the rules are, you know, we don't want to go through the list
[00:12:20] but essentially it's, I will be a good person
[00:12:23] and live a normal life.
[00:12:27] And once the contract is signed, the Marshalls get busy.
[00:12:31] The Deputy United States Marshal would go to the Witnesses' home,
[00:12:35] assess their needs, how many adults, how many children,
[00:12:39] is anybody sick and evaluate the situation.
[00:12:43] All of that information is gathered.
[00:12:46] And then they're told how to act.
[00:12:49] And people will work with them on getting used to their new names
[00:12:55] and so on to it.
[00:12:57] It's getting them used to the documents
[00:13:00] and used to the new name and using it
[00:13:03] and responding when someone calls them.
[00:13:06] Pete Early co-wrote a book with Scher.
[00:13:08] During a C-SPAN program, Scher told stories.
[00:13:12] One was about a time when Scher got a scare
[00:13:15] that his family was in danger.
[00:13:17] And I was on my way home at the time
[00:13:20] and so I started zooming up well beyond that 60-mile limit
[00:13:24] going on home and when by the time I got home
[00:13:27] there were two police cars had stopped this truck coming up
[00:13:31] from where the Merriam's car was
[00:13:33] and I came out and we all had a nice chat
[00:13:36] and it turned out the two guys were mechanics
[00:13:38] who were just about to pass out.
[00:13:41] I mean they were absolutely devastated because when I arrived
[00:13:44] the officers did have their guns drawn
[00:13:46] and things were not going well for these two guys
[00:13:49] who just wanted to pick up the car.
[00:13:51] Unfortunately, the car went, they wanted to pick up
[00:13:53] and look exactly like Merriam's and they got under the wrong car
[00:13:56] which they probably never did again.
[00:13:59] But Merriam was teaching at the time
[00:14:03] when the kidnapping was going to occur
[00:14:06] and when I first told her about it after I learned
[00:14:08] that day that there was this plan
[00:14:10] I asked her if she wanted to leave and she said
[00:14:12] I can't leave, I have my first grade class to attend to.
[00:14:15] Now here on one hand I'm telling you she's going to be tortured
[00:14:18] and she's worried about the first grade class
[00:14:20] I then called the Marshall service
[00:14:22] and asked that they send some protections for my wife
[00:14:25] they found an absolutely delightful, wonderful deputy
[00:14:28] who posed as a student teacher
[00:14:31] with the blessings of the principal of the school.
[00:14:34] The principal of the school was the only one that was told the truth
[00:14:36] and they all agreed everybody understood that Merriam was not presenting a danger
[00:14:40] to the children, she was in danger on her way to and from school
[00:14:44] but not at school.
[00:14:46] And so she had this undercover Marshall who was grading papers for her
[00:14:49] and under her coat of course was her weapon and such
[00:14:52] and so if these first graders got out of line
[00:14:54] they were going to be handled appropriately.
[00:14:58] And if that isn't enough of a problem try this
[00:15:02] here Jerry and Peter again.
[00:15:05] Good many criminals have flourished under it
[00:15:08] we've had some rise so high at the corporate level
[00:15:12] that I was concerned that they would be disclosed
[00:15:15] and we got no corporate boards and such.
[00:15:17] Most of them have done extremely well
[00:15:19] and we have a 10%
[00:15:22] about 10% I think of the people who have entered the program
[00:15:25] have committed crime again
[00:15:27] compare that to a normal state recidivism rate of 40% or 50%
[00:15:31] then the program's done extremely well.
[00:15:33] And that makes sense because a guy gets out of prison
[00:15:36] give him 150 bucks or whatever and say good luck goodbye
[00:15:39] and in this program you're going out
[00:15:41] and you're spending six months getting them into the community
[00:15:44] helping them adjust, getting them jobs
[00:15:46] and also they know if they show up they may be killed
[00:15:50] so that's a pretty good incentive.
[00:15:52] One of the things that Jerry told me was funny was
[00:15:55] they had a witness who ran for mayor in a Texas
[00:15:59] and what he said he was telling the voters
[00:16:02] that he was a crook to begin with instead of Patrick elected
[00:16:05] and then there was a case, what?
[00:16:07] You were worried because a guy was, his son was in the punt
[00:16:11] and it looked like he was going to win
[00:16:14] and you were thinking how in the world are we going to keep this guy hidden
[00:16:16] if he's down there with his son on national TV.
[00:16:18] He'd be afraid to be on national television
[00:16:20] that would be a problem
[00:16:22] but he didn't win so it was not a problem.
[00:16:24] There were other problems
[00:16:26] like mobsters who didn't want to leave the limelight of being a criminal.
[00:16:29] The first problem I ran to with Vinny was after we sent him to a hospital
[00:16:33] to lose weight and on his way out of the hospital
[00:16:37] after he successfully lost his weight
[00:16:39] he stopped and he had two or three dozen donuts
[00:16:41] and there went, so you don't try that sort of thing
[00:16:44] I mean you don't do that again
[00:16:46] but he started to make up stuff about famous people
[00:16:49] that he thought would be useful for prosecutors
[00:16:52] and always trying to really sort of stay on the public bowl
[00:16:55] to get more money
[00:16:57] but after a while we got sort of savvy to that kind of thing
[00:16:59] and as we gained experience we were taking less
[00:17:02] and we began to try to out con the cons
[00:17:05] which is what it amounted to I guess
[00:17:07] and sometimes we were successful, sometimes not.
[00:17:10] I've said in earlier programs about vanishing
[00:17:13] it's not illegal to disappear
[00:17:16] but it does take many illegal acts to pull it off
[00:17:19] you need money, documents
[00:17:22] and a new identity
[00:17:24] all of which require a series of scams or other criminal acts to get
[00:17:28] WITSEC makes people vanish with the permission
[00:17:31] and often encouragement of law enforcement
[00:17:34] is it worth the price?
[00:17:36] as taxpayers we foot the bill for their new life
[00:17:39] but in return we get justice
[00:17:41] by taking the worst criminals off the street
[00:17:44] and putting them in jail
[00:17:46] I think it's worth the trade-off
[00:17:48] but I wouldn't elect one as my mayor
[00:17:53] If you enjoy the show
[00:17:56] please give us a 5 star rating wherever you listen
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[00:18:19] I look forward to hearing what you have to say
[00:18:22] Thanks for listening
[00:18:24] Scams and Cons is a member of the Evergreen Podcast Network
[00:18:33] Hi, I'm Shawn McCabe
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