Think of all the music jingles you've heard over the years, promising that this pill or that one will help prevent cancer, ease your aching bones or guarantee you a longer, healthier life.
It's snake oil and in this episode we tell you the difference between Western medicine, alternative medicine and outright frauds.
Pay close attention, because some people will swallow anything.
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[00:00:00] Based on what you've seen of Daryl Wolf, what's his M.O.?
[00:00:04] His M.O. is, I would describe him honestly as more of like a cult leader.
[00:00:09] Jacob Shelley is a health law and misinformation expert at Western University.
[00:00:14] Someone who's trying to sell an ideology about life that if you buy into it you will be healed.
[00:00:19] And he puts the onus on his clients, his patients.
[00:00:23] In fact, in one of his videos he says, people that come to me in wheelchairs, they leave without a wheelchair but only if they want to.
[00:00:30] The only people that come here in a wheelchair will always be in it because they're emotionally crippled.
[00:00:36] Bring me people that are determined to get out of that wheelchair.
[00:00:50] Say hallelujah brothers and sisters. The cure has arrived.
[00:00:55] Just one bottle of this snake oil will cure cancer, eliminate pneumonia and restore your youth.
[00:01:02] Just one bottle. Step up now and buy one for yourself and maybe a friend or spouse. They'll be grateful you did.
[00:01:10] I'm Jim Grinstead and today we're talking about scam medicines.
[00:01:15] Treatments that promise one thing, but deliver nothing but the heartburn over the money you wasted.
[00:01:29] What is quack medicine?
[00:01:34] For our purposes it's snake oil.
[00:01:37] Stuff that doesn't do anything but relieve you of your aching wallet.
[00:01:40] Consumer Reports tells us the origin of snake oil sales.
[00:01:45] The original snake oil might just have worked.
[00:01:49] It all started in the 1800s.
[00:01:51] While working on the transcontinental railroad, Chinese laborers used an oil made from the Chinese water snake that they believed would reduce the inflammation on their sore and tired muscles.
[00:02:03] Words spread of the healing oil.
[00:02:05] American salesmen looking to get rich made their own.
[00:02:08] But they used rattlesnake, which didn't have the same medicinal properties as the Chinese water snake.
[00:02:13] But when the salesmen added some alcohol and a little opium, folks couldn't get enough.
[00:02:17] The salesmen peddled their snake oil at vaudeville style medicine shows.
[00:02:21] At the 1893 World's Fair in Chicago, Clark Stanley, the rattlesnake king, took a live rattlesnake, sliced it open, and plunged it into boiling water to extract its oil.
[00:02:32] The crowd went wild.
[00:02:34] Little did they know, Stanley had stopped adding real snake to the snake oil he was selling.
[00:02:39] I'm going to skip over western medicine here.
[00:02:42] There are people who peddle medical treatments designed only to generate profits, but they rarely rise to the level of outright bogus claims.
[00:02:50] I'll get into alternative treatments in a minute because they generally don't come with wild claims about what they can do,
[00:02:56] and accept or recommend western medicine when those treatments make sense.
[00:03:01] Lastly, we'll tackle the world of fake medicines.
[00:03:05] Vitamins, salves, rubs, and a whole host of other things that make unrealistic promises,
[00:03:10] which have not been tested or verified.
[00:03:14] So let's get started with alternative medicine.
[00:03:17] So, what do you call us?
[00:03:18] I don't know.
[00:03:20] It depends on the week.
[00:03:22] I'm serious.
[00:03:22] It changes like from time to time.
[00:03:25] And if you use the wrong phrase at the wrong time, you're, you know, some kind of bad person.
[00:03:31] I really don't care what people call me.
[00:03:33] I've never been one to really stand on titles or that kind of thing.
[00:03:38] If you were to ask me what I do, I would say I'm an acupuncturist.
[00:03:43] And the reason that I would say that is most people here in the West have an idea what an acupuncturist is.
[00:03:50] They may not have the right idea, but they've heard of it.
[00:03:53] It's not, it's not that weird.
[00:03:55] If I say, I'm a practitioner of Chinese medicine.
[00:03:58] It's like, what the hell is that?
[00:04:01] Right?
[00:04:02] Unless you're in the field, you don't know.
[00:04:03] That's Michael Max.
[00:04:05] And full disclosure, he's a friend of mine, but I'm not a patient.
[00:04:10] Acupuncture is famous for treating pain.
[00:04:14] So, I would say almost any kind of issue with pain of some sort, acupuncture is often very helpful.
[00:04:21] It's also famous these days for treating infertility and helping women get pregnant and carry pregnancies.
[00:04:29] It's a big business for us these days.
[00:04:31] So, there's that.
[00:04:32] But really, anything that you would go to see your regular GP for, you could probably come see one of us.
[00:04:41] In my practice, I mean, I do treat musculoskeletal pain, that kind of thing, because, you know, it's famous for that.
[00:04:48] And it's good for that.
[00:04:49] But sciatica, in particular, I love it when people come in with sciatica, because they're usually going to get help.
[00:04:55] But I treat digestive issues, insomnia, anxiety, depression.
[00:05:00] If people stick with it long enough, I can help with dermatological issues.
[00:05:03] Those often take more time, because skin problems come from inside.
[00:05:06] You know, they show up on the outside of the body, but it's actually an internal issue.
[00:05:10] This is where it starts to get weird, because when I'm thinking as an acupuncturist,
[00:05:17] I'm not even thinking about those things.
[00:05:19] Now, I'm not saying they don't exist.
[00:05:21] Of course they exist.
[00:05:23] But from the lens and the perspective and the physiology of East Asian Chinese medicine,
[00:05:30] we don't really see chemistry in the body.
[00:05:32] We don't really see hormones.
[00:05:34] Nervous system only to a very rudimentary degree.
[00:05:37] We're looking through a whole different set of lenses and filters.
[00:05:41] The philosophy for this changes with the practitioner.
[00:05:45] What we really want to know is whether it works.
[00:05:48] I can't say positively yes or no, but I do trust Michael, and that's why I asked him to be on the show.
[00:05:55] Disagree with him if you'd like, but practitioners of alternative treatments do see the world through different lenses.
[00:06:00] I've been trained as a Chinese medicine practitioner.
[00:06:04] So, I've learned acupuncture.
[00:06:06] I've learned it from within the rubric of Chinese medicine, Chinese medical thought.
[00:06:12] Chinese medicine has a written history that goes back about 2,000 years.
[00:06:17] You know, you can read case studies from doctors from the Ming dynasty.
[00:06:22] If you can read Chinese, you can read clinic notes to doctors from hundreds of years ago.
[00:06:27] You know, we've got records of how people have been treating for a long, long time.
[00:06:31] You know, you hear things like, oh, Chinese medicine, it's been around.
[00:06:33] It's probably okay.
[00:06:34] It's probably safe.
[00:06:35] Yeah, maybe, but, you know, it's better if you can go and actually read doctors' clinical accounts, and those are there.
[00:06:42] So, I've been trained in that kind of schooling.
[00:06:45] Acupuncture is part of what I do.
[00:06:46] Herbal medicine is part of what I do.
[00:06:48] If the idea of trying Eastern medicine appeals to you, this is what Michael recommends.
[00:06:54] First of all, someone says, hey, I've got these herbs that are going to help you.
[00:06:58] Okay, cool.
[00:06:59] What's your background?
[00:07:00] What's your training?
[00:07:01] Well, you know, I saw this thing on the internet, or oh, my cousin told me, or, you know, whatever.
[00:07:05] If you're talking to someone who has spent some years of their life looking into it,
[00:07:11] I spent a couple of years in Asia studying herbs.
[00:07:13] I got really into it.
[00:07:14] I was really curious.
[00:07:16] Does it mean I'm a great herbalist?
[00:07:17] I don't know.
[00:07:18] I can help people to some degree, but I put some time into it.
[00:07:22] I got time in the boat.
[00:07:23] I wouldn't say that because I've studied it for a long time.
[00:07:27] That makes me super skilled.
[00:07:28] It just means I'm studied.
[00:07:30] Hopefully, I'm skilled.
[00:07:30] But the thing you want to find out is, have they actually studied it?
[00:07:35] Where did they get that knowledge?
[00:07:36] Did they read it in a book?
[00:07:38] Okay, what book did they read?
[00:07:40] Have they corroborated that with reading other books?
[00:07:42] Are they somewhat scholarly?
[00:07:43] Or are they just looking to make some money?
[00:07:45] I'm not a bone setter.
[00:07:47] So, you know, out of my wheelhouse.
[00:07:49] If I broke my bone, I'm going to the ER, let me tell you.
[00:07:52] Hit me up with some painkillers and set that thing.
[00:07:55] Pin it if you need to.
[00:07:57] That's out of my wheelhouse as a Chinese medicine practitioner.
[00:08:00] But I'll tell you where I can help.
[00:08:02] Well, Chinese medicine can help that wound to heal faster.
[00:08:04] And it can help the bone to heal faster.
[00:08:06] So, I'm making a claim here.
[00:08:07] Where does that come from?
[00:08:08] It comes from having patients who have broken bones, giving them some herbs.
[00:08:14] You know, their doctors aren't going to do like an extra monitoring.
[00:08:17] But sometimes we hear anecdotal comments from the Western medicine profession with things like,
[00:08:22] man, you're healing really well.
[00:08:23] You know, I've had patients say, well, you know, for someone your age,
[00:08:25] you're healing up pretty fast.
[00:08:27] Now, is that from the herbs, Jim?
[00:08:29] Or is it just that that person happens to be vital?
[00:08:32] I honestly don't know.
[00:08:34] It's time now to move on to the scoundrels of the world.
[00:08:38] Those who promise everything, but deliver nothing.
[00:08:41] At least nothing that's been proven effective.
[00:08:44] Things like belly button healing.
[00:08:46] You know, I had a pain in my neck from doing deep tissue.
[00:08:49] I couldn't move my neck.
[00:08:50] And I had my son work on it.
[00:08:52] And then I went and I did my belly button healing.
[00:08:56] And guess what?
[00:08:57] It let go just like that.
[00:08:59] That's Dr. Darrell Wolfe, the self-proclaimed doctor of detox,
[00:09:03] saying that a device that looks like a giant letter T
[00:09:06] is what released the energy from his belly button and removed his neck pain.
[00:09:13] Your belly button is what we call the button that releases everything.
[00:09:19] It releases your energy.
[00:09:20] It's the middle of your core, which is everything.
[00:09:27] Back when I was about 31 years old, I had a vasectomy.
[00:09:32] I had like five years of pain after that.
[00:09:35] Any type of pain in the pelvic region is inflammation and scar tissue.
[00:09:40] Well, I will tell you something.
[00:09:41] When I first started using this therapy,
[00:09:43] I could actually feel the same pain that I suffered for five years.
[00:09:50] After 10 days, I was able to go deeper, deeper, deeper
[00:09:54] until I was actually going into my belly button about three to four inches.
[00:09:58] I no longer feel that pain anymore.
[00:10:01] Understand this.
[00:10:02] For me, the belly button therapy is essential, but it's my friend.
[00:10:11] Well, I had a vasectomy when I was younger.
[00:10:15] I had a few days of rest, and a couple of bags of frozen peas got me back on my feet.
[00:10:19] Okay, I limped for a few days, but at no time did I stick my finger into my belly button for relief.
[00:10:25] Oh, and in case you're wondering, I'm an inny.
[00:10:29] He formerly practiced in Canada, but some bad press sent him out of the country.
[00:10:34] He now works in Mexico with his doctorate in natural medicine.
[00:10:38] Try his stuff if you like, but be sure to read his policy on product returns.
[00:10:42] It says,
[00:10:44] Our policy lasts 30 days.
[00:10:46] If 30 days have gone by since your purchase, unfortunately we can't offer you a refund or exchange.
[00:10:53] To be eligible for a return, your item must be unused and in the same condition that you received it.
[00:10:59] It must also be in the original packaging.
[00:11:02] In other words, if you try it, you're stuck with it.
[00:11:12] If you're an old fart like me, you may leap at the chance to buy isoprex.
[00:11:17] It claims to be a supplement to cure joint inflammation and pain.
[00:11:26] Its advertisements read,
[00:11:28] Stop doing this one thing and cut your chance of an early joint replacement by half.
[00:11:36] I don't know if it has a banana in its ads.
[00:11:40] The FTCs said Renaissance Health Publishing LLC,
[00:11:44] the company that marketed isoprex,
[00:11:47] claim that it relieves pain, including muscle pain, joint pain, headaches and arthritis,
[00:11:53] reduces inflammation and swelling, including joint inflammation and knee swelling,
[00:11:58] rebuilds joints and repairs damaged joint cartilage,
[00:12:01] is 100% effective at relieving inflammation and swelling,
[00:12:05] and provides pain relief comparable or better than OTC drugs.
[00:12:11] The FTC alleged the defendants falsely claimed to have tests and studies to back up their product claims
[00:12:18] and failed to disclose the endorsers appearing in their isoprex ads
[00:12:22] were either compensated for their testimonials
[00:12:24] or were company employees and their relatives.
[00:12:27] That's a boatload of claims.
[00:12:30] And that's why the FTC requested a court order
[00:12:32] that would impose a judgment of $3.93 million,
[00:12:37] which was partially suspended due to an inability to pay
[00:12:40] after the defendants paid $100,000.
[00:12:43] The FTC may use those funds to pay refunds to consumers
[00:12:47] harmed by the defendants' allegedly misleading advertising.
[00:12:56] It's worth taking some time here to discuss the difference between a supplement and a medicine.
[00:13:02] The University of Pennsylvania, through its website, Penn Medicine,
[00:13:07] says one-third of Americans take supplements
[00:13:09] and 40% of those are for multivitamins.
[00:13:13] The most common supplements are fish oil,
[00:13:15] omega-3,
[00:13:17] DHA,
[00:13:18] or EPA fatty acids.
[00:13:20] The school says sometimes supplements work,
[00:13:24] but since they haven't been tested or subjected to medical research,
[00:13:28] there's little evidence to support their claims.
[00:13:31] The school also reports that it's illegal for companies to make claims
[00:13:35] that supplements will treat,
[00:13:37] diagnose,
[00:13:38] prevent,
[00:13:38] or cure diseases.
[00:13:40] If you want to try a supplement,
[00:13:42] it makes sense to do some research
[00:13:44] and see if there's anything backing its claims,
[00:13:46] other than the company saying,
[00:13:48] trust us,
[00:13:49] or testimonials from someone you've never heard about.
[00:13:53] We don't have to go far back in history
[00:13:55] to find herbs that are peddled as cure-alls,
[00:13:58] but have little, if any, information to back it up.
[00:14:01] Our AI voice, Marie,
[00:14:03] reads from a New York Times article published in July 2023.
[00:14:07] Across gas stations,
[00:14:09] smoke shops,
[00:14:10] and the internet,
[00:14:11] consumers can easily buy Crotome,
[00:14:13] an herbal substance that some users claim
[00:14:16] is an antidote to opioid dependence
[00:14:17] and a lifeline for alleviating mental and physical pain.
[00:14:22] In 2021 alone,
[00:14:24] roughly 1.7 million Americans used Crotome,
[00:14:27] although the FDA has not approved it for any medical use.
[00:14:31] There is limited information on Crotome.
[00:14:34] A 2022 review of its health effects
[00:14:37] characterized the research in the United States
[00:14:40] as still in its infancy.
[00:14:42] But federal health authorities
[00:14:44] have persistently highlighted the potential harms.
[00:14:48] The Food and Drug Administration
[00:14:49] urges consumers not to use it
[00:14:51] because of the risk of serious adverse events,
[00:14:54] and the Drug Enforcement Administration
[00:14:56] has labeled Crotome
[00:14:57] a drug and chemical of concern.
[00:15:00] It's worth knowing that some supplements
[00:15:03] may interfere or be dangerous to use with medicines.
[00:15:06] So it's a good idea to check with your doctor
[00:15:08] before popping some new remedy into your body.
[00:15:12] Now here's a fun one.
[00:15:14] Psychic Surgery
[00:15:15] The website Reiki Psychic Surgery
[00:15:18] contains this text read by A.I. Michael.
[00:15:21] Psychic Surgery can be used to heal
[00:15:23] very stubborn blocks
[00:15:24] that have not responded to gentler forms of healing over time.
[00:15:27] It has been used for physical ailments predominantly,
[00:15:30] but can be focused on spiritual and emotional issues as well.
[00:15:34] Reiki Psychic Surgery combines several healing techniques
[00:15:37] with Reiki and intuition
[00:15:38] to bring about healing.
[00:15:41] Reiki Psychic Surgery takes place
[00:15:43] under Archangel Raphael's guidance
[00:15:45] because he is the master healer of the angelic realm.
[00:15:48] To help a client through Reiki Psychic Healing,
[00:15:50] you must be able to put aside all logic
[00:15:52] and trust solely in intuition.
[00:15:55] Only when you are totally surrendered will Raphael work,
[00:15:58] making it seem effortless.
[00:16:00] Raphael is the chief surgeon.
[00:16:02] We are simply there to assist.
[00:16:05] I'm not a physician,
[00:16:07] nor have I played one on TV,
[00:16:08] so I'm in no position to say
[00:16:10] whether this iteration of psychic surgery
[00:16:12] is a scam or not.
[00:16:14] I can tell you that psychic surgery
[00:16:16] is an old stage magician's trick
[00:16:18] that makes it appear
[00:16:19] the magician is pulling an organ out of somebody's body,
[00:16:22] but in reality,
[00:16:23] they're pulling something like a chicken liver
[00:16:25] out of their palm.
[00:16:28] This one comes from the early 20th century
[00:16:30] when nuclear power was new and filled with promises.
[00:16:34] Researchers were trying to figure out
[00:16:36] how to harness this powerful new form of energy
[00:16:38] and didn't fully understand
[00:16:40] the risks involved in working with it.
[00:16:42] Scammers, however,
[00:16:44] knew exactly what to do with it.
[00:16:46] Turn it into a cure-all
[00:16:47] and sell it to the masses.
[00:16:54] One of the most infamous was Radiothor.
[00:16:57] It was water with a touch of radioactive material.
[00:17:00] It came on the market in 1920
[00:17:03] and was said to be a cure for the living dead.
[00:17:09] It was made by Bailey Radium Laboratories in New Jersey.
[00:17:13] The company was founded by William J.A. Bailey,
[00:17:16] who was not a certified doctor
[00:17:18] as he dropped out of Harvard Medical School.
[00:17:20] That didn't keep him from claiming he graduated
[00:17:23] and the public was willing to accept that.
[00:17:29] Among those who were willing customers
[00:17:31] was even Byers.
[00:17:34] Byers was born in 1880
[00:17:35] and graduated from Yale.
[00:17:37] He was considered a smart
[00:17:39] and very athletic man.
[00:17:43] During one of his athletic endeavors,
[00:17:46] he fell and hurt his arm.
[00:17:48] That left him in pain
[00:17:49] and his doctor thought Radiothor
[00:17:51] was just the thing to help him.
[00:18:00] The prescription was for a small spoonful a day.
[00:18:03] It's believed the placebo effect
[00:18:05] led Byers to feel better
[00:18:07] and he began to take more of the radioactive water.
[00:18:10] And by more,
[00:18:11] I mean up to three bottles a day.
[00:18:18] Over time,
[00:18:20] he consumed more than 1,400 bottles.
[00:18:28] In 1931,
[00:18:30] he got a jaw-dropping surprise.
[00:18:33] The prize was that his jaw literally dropped.
[00:18:36] It fell from his face
[00:18:37] because the radiation had destroyed the bone.
[00:18:40] The radiation had also destroyed nerves
[00:18:42] and other tissues
[00:18:43] so he didn't have pain from the unseen damage.
[00:18:48] He died in 1932 at age 51
[00:18:51] when his body was exhumed years later for research.
[00:18:54] It was still highly radioactive.
[00:19:05] So let's wrap this up
[00:19:06] with some wisdom from Dr. Lydia Kang.
[00:19:09] She's a doctor of internal medicine
[00:19:11] and the author of many books
[00:19:13] on various topics
[00:19:14] and in different genres.
[00:19:16] Here's what she has to say
[00:19:17] about why we seek out miracle cures.
[00:19:20] So I have a couple answers for this,
[00:19:22] but first a story.
[00:19:23] It's about me and my hair.
[00:19:25] So for a couple decades now,
[00:19:28] I am the person responsible in my household
[00:19:30] for leaving wads of hair in the shower drain.
[00:19:34] Call it genetics,
[00:19:35] call it telogen effluvium,
[00:19:37] which is a fancy word for
[00:19:39] my hair sheds and cycles so much
[00:19:41] more than a golden retriever.
[00:19:45] But what I do know
[00:19:46] is that when I flip open my computer,
[00:19:48] these ads will pop up
[00:19:49] because the all-knowing internet
[00:19:51] knows me better than I know myself.
[00:19:52] And it'll try to sell me
[00:19:54] these new hair shampoos
[00:19:56] and vitamins and laser cannons
[00:19:58] that promise to turn me into Chewbacca
[00:20:00] if I just click on the clickbait
[00:20:03] and hand over my credit card.
[00:20:05] Now, depending on how much hair
[00:20:07] I've been shedding that morning,
[00:20:08] I might actually click on some of them.
[00:20:10] I might even buy some of them.
[00:20:13] So here's a little context.
[00:20:15] I am a practicing physician
[00:20:17] of internal medicine.
[00:20:18] I know how to do
[00:20:19] a medical literature search.
[00:20:21] And I know how to read
[00:20:23] that medical literature
[00:20:24] better than the average American.
[00:20:26] It's part of my job.
[00:20:27] With my co-author, Nate Peterson,
[00:20:29] we actually wrote an entire book
[00:20:31] on the history of quack medicine.
[00:20:33] So in a nutshell,
[00:20:34] when it comes to hair loss schemes,
[00:20:36] I really should know better.
[00:20:38] So why is it that all of us
[00:20:40] can be so susceptible
[00:20:41] to these unproven
[00:20:43] and occasionally fraudulent
[00:20:44] quack remedies out there now?
[00:20:47] There's one obvious reason,
[00:20:48] which is that, you know,
[00:20:49] we don't know everything
[00:20:50] about the human body.
[00:20:51] As a result of that,
[00:20:52] we don't have a cure
[00:20:53] for everything that can go wrong in it.
[00:20:55] And that leaves a lot of room
[00:20:56] for quacks to fill the void
[00:20:59] with their products.
[00:21:01] The second reason is bias.
[00:21:03] So bias is this incredibly powerful force
[00:21:07] that affects every single one of us.
[00:21:09] Let's say, for instance,
[00:21:10] you really want to lose some weight
[00:21:11] and your two trusted friends
[00:21:13] swear that swallowing tapeworm eggs
[00:21:15] will do the trick.
[00:21:16] So you buy them too.
[00:21:18] That's called the bandwagon effect.
[00:21:21] Let's say you really want to work
[00:21:22] on your complexion,
[00:21:23] so you fork over $50
[00:21:25] to pay for these great arsenic wafers.
[00:21:28] And after you've spent the money,
[00:21:29] you think,
[00:21:30] God, that was really expensive,
[00:21:31] but it's good stuff.
[00:21:33] It must work, right?
[00:21:34] That's post-purchase rationalization.
[00:21:37] And those are only two
[00:21:38] of many, many different biases
[00:21:39] that we are affected by all the time.
[00:21:42] Here's the more complicated answer
[00:21:44] as to why quackery is still vividly alive today.
[00:21:48] It's hope.
[00:21:50] Now, don't get me wrong.
[00:21:51] Hope is incredibly important.
[00:21:53] I mean, we can't wake up in the morning
[00:21:55] without hope.
[00:21:56] We wouldn't have eradicated smallpox
[00:21:59] or saved countless heart attack victims
[00:22:01] without it.
[00:22:02] I mean, it's one of the things
[00:22:03] that makes us so human, isn't it?
[00:22:05] But hope can be a little intoxicating.
[00:22:08] And like certain intoxicants,
[00:22:10] it can alter your ability
[00:22:12] to critically evaluate treatments
[00:22:13] and cures that are out there.
[00:22:16] Sometimes, I wish the word came
[00:22:17] with a big warning label.
[00:22:19] Hope can be hazardous to your health.
[00:22:22] You see, our health
[00:22:23] is part of our identity.
[00:22:27] It's deeply personal.
[00:22:29] And when we are making decisions
[00:22:31] about our health care,
[00:22:32] it's not always a subjective choosing
[00:22:34] of this versus that.
[00:22:35] It is personal,
[00:22:36] and it can be an emotional process.
[00:22:38] And so when something in our body
[00:22:40] goes awry,
[00:22:40] and our immune system
[00:22:42] starts attacking us,
[00:22:44] and we now have a diagnosis
[00:22:45] of lupus or rheumatoid arthritis,
[00:22:47] it's not the body
[00:22:48] that we thought we had before.
[00:22:50] And we want so much
[00:22:51] to get back to normal
[00:22:52] or a new normal
[00:22:54] as soon as possible.
[00:23:01] If you enjoy the podcast,
[00:23:03] please help us out
[00:23:04] by telling your friends
[00:23:05] and encouraging them to listen.
[00:23:07] You can find us
[00:23:08] wherever you get your podcasts
[00:23:10] and at scamsandcons.com.
[00:23:13] This podcast
[00:23:14] is an independent
[00:23:15] one-person production.
[00:23:16] If you'd like to support
[00:23:18] the program,
[00:23:19] please go to scamsandcons.com
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[00:23:26] and that's greatly appreciated.
[00:23:29] Thanks for listening.